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Lindal Cedar Homes |
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Richard of Big Timber MT (02/24/08) Brian of Chicago IL (12/15/06) Mary of Durham NC (07/16/05) 10 Things You Should Know 1. Lindal advertising can be harmful to your health. Lindal is a marketer and supplier ONLY and has no control or oversight with dealers, project design or construction. 2. Don't be pressured by special sales. Ask for an extension. Shop around. 3. Lindal DOES NOT teach design or construction and will recruit anyone in spite of background or suitability. Nothing overcomes bad design. 4. Beware of exorbitant design fees disguised as material deposits that may not be refundable. 5. Most dealers do not know BEANS about construction. Do your homework. 6. Dealers are NOT agents for the manufacturer so there is no accountability when things go wrong. 7. Protect your money at all times through bonds, escrows and small draws. Don't pay without proof of solvency. 8. Due to high dealer turnover future warranty service or repairs will be difficult to impossible. Existing dealers are not obligated to fix your problem. You're on your own. 9. DO NOT sign anything with Arbitration Clauses without consulting an attorney. You'll be sorry. 10. The probability that you will have trouble with your order, your dealer, your contractor and/or your warranty service is very high. Peter of Gladstone, NJ writes (6/5/02):
We never got past the design stage. Attempting to build a Lindal home immediately pits you against a triangle (Lindal, their dealer, and a builder that is likely recommended by the dealer). Each one is independent of the other, and no one wants to take the blame as things begin to go wrong. The all-important site evaluation was never done, despite the fact that it's advertised as part of the process. It would have been critical in our case, because of the slope of the land and solar orientation. Lindal only sells through independent dealers, and our regional dealership and consultant turned out to be a lost cause. They have held onto our $30,000 deposit since October 7, 2000. They have not been able to produce a useable set of plans, suitable to our local construction official, or the design requirements we established in the beginning. We were coerced into paying our deposit early in the process, to lock in a Summer Promotion that was said to be the best they ever had. (Turns out this is their standard tactic). After that, the process became totally unprofessional, and slowed down to a crawl. We were originally told we could break ground in the winter of 2000-2001, but then it turned to spring...and summer. We completely lost our trust in both the dealership and Lindal. We felt it necessary to hire a prominent real estate attorney to attempt to recover our deposit, and keep from getting raked over the coals further. Our dealership had not caught up to the computer age. Our consultant worked with whiteout and her hand-written notes, which got mailed to Lindal, where they would get misinterpreted. It was explained to us that 90% of customers change an existing set of Lindal plans to suit their requirements, and that the additional design work is included in the package price, and does not result in an additional charge. There were supposed to be several chances to make changes, but they went from an initial set of Preliminary Plans, which were severely botched, to several sets of “Final” Plans, which were likewise riddled with serious errors. Each iteration would set our schedule back, taking weeks for the round trip. Our consultant worked only a limited schedule every week, and began taking time off for various reasons. No one was there to fill in the gaps, and apparently the owner was pretty much out of the loop. (I learned later that others have said the same thing; he seems to spend most of his time running his other business). At one frustrating point, I asked if I could contact Lindal directly, to iron out the problems, and was told “NO”. I tried anyway, first with an overnight-FedEx letter, and then phone calls, which got ignored. We would get calls from the consultant asking off-the-wall questions about issues that had supposedly been solved weeks or months previously, revealing that no progress was being made. What ultimately killed the project was a voice message from their builder, saying that our target of $400K had grown to $630K – a 60% increase – before even breaking ground! “How much did you want to spend?” That message was left on my work phone, early in the morning, knowing I wouldn't be there. He then pulled a disappearing act. It took two more weeks to get him to fax a very unprofessional, incomplete bid, in which the figures did not add up to his total! We own the land outright, and had arrived at the $400K figure for a “turnkey” home early in the game, with our consultant’s guidance, and had followed up by giving her and the builder itemized lists showing how that figure was derived. I then repeatedly asked each of them to inform us, should that figure ever come under doubt. Normally, one would go for 3 bids, but our consultant insisted that their builder was the best – he was familiar with the details of Lindal post and beam construction, and also the process of accepting delivery of the Lindal package off a large truck, and storing it. I have since spoken to the people who built a Lindal home just before our attempt, and had used the same dealership, consultant and builder. They also were roped-in with the same pricing formula that we were, and hit with a large cost increase. When confronting the consultant, got the retort "Oh, you really thought you could build for THAT amount?" After getting that “drop dead” bid from the builder, there was no response from the dealership. I called them to inquire about using a different builder – but no one was in! After calling around, it quickly became apparent that our builder was well known – and was blacklisted by at least one other dealer. People went out of their way to warn me not to use him! The fact that he had been working so far from his home in Pennsylvania should have raised a red flag early on. I believe the ultimate responsibility for our failed attempt to build a home rests with Lindal. You cannot deal directly with Lindal, but have to go through one of their dealers. I had alerted Lindal management to the problems we were having via a FedEx over-nighted letter. It took weeks to get a response, and that was only to say they'd get back to us. They haven't. They haven’t bothered to answer any of our questions, including two major ones: (1) Why can’t our sunroom have an overhang, which was a major requirement from the beginning, and is shown on their website, and (2) What is the cost of their package of materials, a figure which has not been updated to reflect major changes and deletions since we put down our deposit. We had deleted skylights and two double French doors from the plans, after finding out that Lindal charges nearly double the going price for Velux skylights. We were quoted "nearly $11,000" for two doors, which we priced locally for under $5,000 for the pair. Lindal's literature tells you that anything is possible when it comes to window geometry, etc. They don't tell you that any deviation becomes prohibitively expensive. The dealer's attitude seemed to be that nothing was possible. UPDATE: Our dealer has gone out of business, and made off with $9,000 of our deposit. The remaining $21,000 has been sent to Lindal. Our attorney got hold of a "Confidential Internal Request for Refund" form, from Lindal, dated 11/15/01, which has never been processed or made known to me. On it, their accounting shows that they want to charge us an additional $6,500. So we'd be getting less than half of our deposit back, and have nothing to show for it. I've been corresponding with other families who have received chillingly similar treatment from Lindal, and am aware of about $80,000 in unsettled deposits, which is surely just the tip of the iceberg. Sorry this got so lengthy. But the words here don’t come close to describing the whole scenario. It was such a letdown, to put a year’s time and effort into the preparation of building a home. Then there were the wasted expenses: The dealer had talked us into applying for all the permits and the mortgage, before we should have. It cost thousands of dollars for the survey, topo, perc test, site plans, and septic design. This project had been our dream for many years. Our two sons had also gotten completely wrapped up in the anticipation of a new home. Not being able to build it has been a totally DEVASTATING experience for my family, and a tremendous setback. It's driven a wedge in our family life. My wife and younger son blame me for not being aggressive enough with the dealership. I'm a nervous wreck, often wake up at night and can't fall back to sleep, and can't concentrate at work. I worry about our deposit, the interest on it, the lost related fees, and how many thousands our lawyer's likely to charge us before this is all over. Robin of Ramona CA (6/6/02):
On Phase One shipment, Lindal shorted us on some materials and shipped too much of other material which we paid for that lay out in the yard. It was like pulling teeth to get them to respond to shortages and several shortage shipments were incorrect items. This held up progress significantly. That was a major annoyance and had not yet caused us to want to discontinue our Contract for Phase Two. Our MAIN complaint is that Lindal shipped known defective windows and allowed us to install a two-story window wall and finish interior and exterior. When it rained a little, the rain poured in. We still cannot put our flooring in and this was a drought your in Southern Cal. We have a great room with a two-story window wall. I can't even look at that wall without cringing. The flooring has been piled in the garage for ages and we live on cement because we don't want further damage. When we reported the leaks, it was then that Lindal immediately said they knew the windows should be replaced. I am glad I have that in writing. It has been over 17 months and still no satisfaction, just torture, rudeness and different stories each time a call is made. It has been an unbelievable timeline in response. I understand just before our delivery, Lindal had decided to try to manufacture their own windows (they used to use Milgard) but they had poor to no inspections or quality control and the techniques were inexperienced and flawed. They have given a written description of their defect and detailed drawings as to what they did wrong in assembly of the windows. It was after many calls and time at my experience talking to different Lindal folks (each with a variation of what went wrong) that I was able to help the rep in Newport Beach learn what had gone wrong with the materials she represented. After a year, they offered to 'patch' the windows with no guarantees that this would solve the problem. After having the "patch technique" reviewed by a couple of window experts, I turned down the offer. Five days later Lindal sent patch guy to San Diego without telling him I turned down the offer. I think there is a major communication problem not only with the customer but internally as well. OR, Lindal is planning to use that in court to say they tried to resolve and I refused. I consulted with an attorney. He says Lindal had breached the contract since they state they ship the highest quality materials AND they have proven their warranty to be useless. In actuality, the 2x6 boards used in framing were high quality. However, I consider the windows (that don't leak) along the lines of high grade K-Mart quality. When opening the windows, the hardware usually falls apart and I must put the crank mechanism back together after almost each usage. We installed one Pella brand window…that IS a quality window…in a whole different class than the Lindal windows. The hardware on the Lindal sliding glass doors quit working before we even completed construction. Much of the cedar liner shipped was warped or split and many bundles were delivered damaged and we never received replacement. The hardware for the doors was mid-grade K-Mart quality. We bought different hardware when we saw what was provided. I need to find out the truth about the Arbitration Clause in the fine print on the back of the contract that was not pointed out or explained before signing. More legal expense. Arbitration Clauses are receiving a lot of attention in the news regarding consumer's protection. My rep explained arbitration to me for the first time last Friday, 5/31/2002. She says first I can go to "Non-Binding" Arbitration. This means you pay a lot of money and the arbitrator makes suggestions that are not binding, meaning Lindal still will not have to act. After that, she said I will be able to take the next step and spend MORE money for Binding Arbitration and all will abide by the arbitrators suggestions but I cannot ask for damages caused by Lindal defective materials and delays. Then if I want to go to court, I must do that at the convenience of Lindal and file in Seattle. I live in San Diego County and that is where the defective house is. Believe me, if that was explained to me before signing, I would have run fast and far. The rep was very friendly at that point and I trusted her. Needless to say upon learning of the bad quality of materials shipped in Phase One and bad responses to our every communication along with the abuse, we asked for our deposit back for Phase Two. No response to that request other than a nasty letter demanding I take shipment of Lindal materials for Phase Two. I had already pulled building permits for Phase Two at the end of last year. Now Lindal says I have to take shipment or they will sue and that I can't use their plans to build. With Phase One, the Lindal rep suggested I get some of the materials locally. I suggested I take materials for Phase Two in the amount of my deposit providing they are around the pricing of local retail and I would forego the warranty since it was worth nothing. Again, no response. Now with Phase Two Lindal says I must buy EVERYTHING from them. They cannot tell me why I was allowed to buy some materials locally for Phase One nor send me anything in the writing that says what I MUST buy from Lindal. The rep states verbally now "all structural materials" but that was not the case in Phase One. What a mess and very unprofessional experience. People need to be aware that the Lindal Promotions are a ploy to hold as much of your money as possible in case you change your mind. Be prepared for abusive letters. I wish I knew if I could safely and legally put up a web page with all correspondence. I work for a large company writing Oracle database programs for Customer Services. I shared one of the letters from Lindal as an example of customer relations....it was quite the joke. Both Phase One and Phase Two plans took an additional $2000 for each set to have a structural engineer bring the Lindal plans up to California code. I could see Lindal had version control problems. Things that were fixed on early revision plans would show up again in later plans. Our second story ended up being a foot shorter than it should be because of this. We didn't catch the mistake on the plans until it was too late as were putting in the second floor. Forget ever putting a balcony like we were later planning! The San Diego County building inspector says our Lindal plans are the second to the worst he has seen in his career. We were using a contractor that had built several Lindal homes for our framing stage. He was working for us as an hourly worker during framing (not as our contractor). I wish I had listened to all the negative things he had to say about what would happen once Lindal has a good portion of our money as far as Customer Service goes. I thought he was just a "bad-mouther" at the time. Turns out everything he said came true as much as I hate to admit it. Lindal puts out a good book/brochure, but BUYERS BEWARE! Check references, check the Internet, get a price list from your local supplier. Make sure you know what Lindal's "Non-Binding and Binding Arbitration" clause means to YOU. This clause attempts to take away your rights as a consumer if you encounter problems. You pay Lindal 3-4 times the price in materials. Lindal says you are paying for better quality supplies and fantastic warranty. So far the warranty is as good as none….perhaps worse as I have taken a lot of abuse from Lindal. It's scant comfort to Robin but her experience shows the importance of fully and completely reading every contract before signing it. Contracts mean what they say and, generally speaking, they are binding, which means the buyer is stuck. In a purchase as large as a house, it's worth paying several hundred dollars to have an attorney represent you in the transaction, given the problems that can arise later. Edwin of Frederick MD (10/19/01):
Other incentives were included, specifically, a significant amount of T&G cedar liner for free. As an additional incentive Dereggi also provides contractors through her other business, Dereggi Construction Company, [Editor's Note: See Lindal Homes - A Response] and since they have many years expierience in solid cedar, we should consider no one else. The total cost of the materials for the addition was $60.000. $854.00 for design fees and the balance for materials only. After signing the Lindal contract and forwarding the deposit to Lindal in Seattle it soon became apparent that our dealer/designer was very evasive when it came to providing a estimate, proposal or contract for construction of the addition. In short we were misled into believing we had contractors to erect our addition in order to gain our confidence to secure the contract with Lindal. Making the best of it knowing we'll soon need to find reputable contractors, our permit plans delivered from Lindal revealed a massive post and beam right in the middle of our existing loft. Something they kept hidden from the beginning. I specifically wanted all loads for the new addition side handled from the new addition side. There was no fondation plan either, the T&G liner was not available and cedar shakes for our roof of unknown style. We were also told not to contact Lindal directly, to route all design issues through our useless dealer. Dereggi refused to reveal current costing, we had adjusted the overall square footage and a rather expensive sunwall was a very low estimate from the begining. Under these circumstances we elected to cancel our Lindal contract Mar. 18, 2001. We were informed that our $10,000.00 deposit was non refundable. So much for our $854.00 design fee! Lindal Cedar homes would NOT talk to us regarding this matter, we were forced to retain a lawyer at an additional expense. The only indirect communication from Lindal was to take $3000.00 and go away or they will come after us for the full contract amount! The arbitration clause in our contract restricted our ability to apply legal pressure. We have filed a complaint with the States Attorney in Md. but their response is that it's not within their jurisdiction. The BBB and Maryland Home Improvement Commission seem to want to avoid the issue because of the arbitration clause in the contract. Our lawyer has been able to steer the mediation portion of arbitration to Maryland but Dereggi is playing "Hide and Seek" We have now missed our first set of mediation dates. I'm sure she will be able to dodge us again. The American Arbitration Association doesn't seem too interested in correcting this behavior. The arbitration clause in the contract was not initialed and dated by all parties as required under MD law but my lawyer does not think this can be exploited in our favor. Lindal has been keeping a very low profile and only eventually responded to the demand letter from my attorney. All communications between Lindal and myself have been through him at this point. If Edwin and other consumers feel that Lindal has misled them in some manner, they should contact the Washington State Attorney General. The address is in our Consumer Resources section. |
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